Michelle Barclay: Thank you so much for allowing me to visit your beautiful office and to interview you. My first question to both of you is, what was your path to a law degree?
Judge Pham: Being in the legal profession is a second career for me. My first career was in tax software development, and I worked at a multinational corporation for about five years. In 2008, my parents lost their jobs. In the wake of that, I left my job and, to help them, I purchased a chicken farm. After we were all back on our feet, law school and world affairs piqued my interest. September 11, 2001 greatly impacted me and caused me to think about the bigger picture. I was an avid newswatcher and interested in local, legislative, and national affairs. I decided to pursue a career in the legal field, took the LSAT, and went to law school.
Judge Nguyen: My path was a little different. At the behest of my parents, I was a pre-med major. At that time, I did not know much about the legal profession and neither did my parents. During my last year in pre-med studies, I realized that I had no passion to be a doctor or to work in the medical field whatsoever. I had good grades though, so I started taking some legal studies courses, and that’s when I discovered that I really liked the law. I asked one of my professors about whether he thought I would be a good fit for law school. He encouraged me, so that is why I decided to take the LSAT and go to law school.
MB: What was your path to the bench?
Judge Pham: After law school, I worked as an assistant city attorney through a private law firm that represented many of the cities around the Atlanta airport and I met a lot of elected officials through that work. About six years ago, the city of Morrow—which was one of the cities for which I had worked as an assistant city attorney—was seeking an associate judge. I saw the job posting and reached out to the city manager to let them know that I’d be interested in the position. I took the opportunity to remind them that I had already been working in that area, including drafting some ordinances, plus I was already familiar with many people working in city government. The city manager raised my interest to the city council and I was soon appointed as an associate judge for the City of Morrow. Then, the City of Chamblee appointed me as an associate judge, and later the City of Norcross also appointed me as an associate judge. About four years ago, the City of Lawrenceville interviewed me and offered me the position of Chief Municipal Court Judge because the current chief was retiring. I was thrilled to say, “yes.” It is the greatest honor of my life to serve as a judge.
Judge Nguyen: For me, I never thought I would be a judge because I like being a lawyer. I like to represent clients. It is a privilege to be an attorney representing others. I hadn’t realized that I could be a part-time judge, but I like the balance of doing both. When Ethan stepped down in Morrow to take on the chief judge position in Lawrenceville, he asked if I should apply and they readily agreed. My path was easier because Ethan suggested me after his years of good service. I had a great interview with the city council and the mayor of Morrow, and they soon appointed me. I was later called for an interview with Forest Park officials and I was appointed an associate judge there, too. Then John’s Creek called and I was appointed again. I am honored to be a part-time municipal court judge in three cities.
Judge Pham: We also have an office in the City of Morrow, so we are very active there and Jenny grew up in Morrow. In law school, I did not know about these sorts of job options which are wonderful ways to be of service to our government but also to be entrepreneurial. Jenny and I were both born in Vietnam. Our dads served in the South Vietnamese military during the Vietnam War and were thrown into the “re-education” camps after the war because of their involvement with the U.S. military. Neither of them had any due process for this imprisonment. We grew up in a country without the rule of law–where the law is whatever the government says it is at any given point in time. Now, as adults, we get to play a role in our democracy as lawyers and judges. It is amazing. We’ve come full circle. We take pride in our history. We also take pride in our ability to represent people and to serve on the bench to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. It is such an honor.
Judge Nguyen: We really take our work to heart, never for granted. Ethan gets emotional about it, but he is right. We have come full circle. To be in this country, to practice law, and to serve as judges–it’s been an incredible journey for us.
MB: I find your answers inspiring. How did you two meet?
Judge Pham: Jenny was already a practicing attorney when I completed my first year of law school. I happened to seek an internship at the firm where she worked. She was my supervisor. And, the rest was history.
MB: Judging by the activity in this office, you both are incredibly busy but I can see you also have a lot of energy. How do you juggle everything?
Judge Nguyen: I like being a busy person. I like a long task list and it helps that I have a great partner. We talk about everything together, work and personal. We are growing together and we can get a lot accomplished together.
Judge Pham: I agree. In our close relationship with each other and other people, we’ve been able to expand our practice and build an infrastructure that supports us so that we can take time to serve on the bench. We rely on our staff and attorneys in the firm to do important work and they do. We make sure that things get done while we’re not in the office because we’re serving on the bench. That’s how we’re able to do it.
MB: What does the future hold for you? Say in 5 years or beyond?
Judge Nguyen: I really like what we are doing, so I would say that we will be doing the same thing in the future. Whether as judges or as lawyers, our main goal is to help as many people as we can. Sometimes, we get bogged down in the details of work and we are not able to help as many people as we’d like, but I hope as we expand our services and grow our firm, we’ll hit a better stride and increase efficiency so that we can help all who need it. I love our building. This is our home and it will be our home for a long time. I have been in Georgia since 1996, so it’s my home now and I anticipate that we will be here for the rest of our lives.
Judge Pham: I agree. I came to America when I was about 10. Jenny was about eight when she arrived. We are both from South Vietnam. Our families arrived with nothing. Roughly seven years ago, we opened our own firm with just the two of us and two paralegals, so four employees in total. Today, we have seven lawyers and a total of thirty-two employees in two locations. Jenny and I also do a lot of work in the community. We create educational videos, along with our friends in the medical field, to educate the community, especially the Asian American community, about legal and health issues. We do this because there is such a huge need for reliable and accurate information. Our future is to continue doing what we are doing because we love our work.
One issue I especially want to call attention to is the unauthorized practice of law in immigrant communities. It is a rampant problem and not enough is being done to curb it. There are attorneys who team up with non-attorneys from the immigrant communities and then allow their non-attorney staff to go out in the community and advertise or represent themselves as if they’re attorneys. And oftentimes, the legal work is done by the non-attorneys. This can cause tremendous problems and we meet the victims of these crimes. We often have to clean up a mess. Despite knowing that they have been victimized, they do not want to report it because they don’t want to “rock the boat.” So there are no consequences for the scammers, and we have a vicious cycle. Prosecutors don’t know that this fraud exists and, thus far, the State Bar hasn’t done much about it. It is so frustrating. We are members of the Bar and the Bench and we see these problems and we feel powerless. I am hoping that more can be done on this front.
Judge Nguyen: The consequences of this fraud can be very serious. I practice immigration law and if you file something incorrectly, it could be considered a fraudulent filing. The consequences are that the person can be deported forever or jailed and then deported, which means they will not see their family again in this country. So, the ramifications can be very severe. It is more than just losing money. The consequences can be loss of liberty, loss of an opportunity to get permanent residency, and loss of the opportunity to apply for citizenship.
MB: Thank you so much for raising that concern and for giving those examples. I really appreciate your efforts to improve this issue. Thank you very much for your time and for your daily work. We are lucky to have you both in our state.
